The following discussion appeared on Facebook and not on You Tube so I recorded it and made my own video, which I have provided with a very rough-and-ready transcript below.
Geert Vanden Bossche takes a unique view
You can also see the video HERE
Good evening to everyone wherever you are in the world. Thank you very much for joining me again. We have with us again, Geert vanden Bosche. And I have a tremendous pleasure talking with Geert. I mean, a lot of the conversations are so deep, so heavy. And my job is to try and see if I can simplify it as best as possible. But I’ve been speaking to Geert since March 2021. And I have the honor of being the first to interview him. And since then Geert is almost an international celebrity. And so for me to have him with me, again, is again, a tremendous honour. And so we’re going to be going through with him some more of his predictions as to what he thinks is happening. Many people still don’t accept that what Geert is saying is right or was right. But I find that very difficult to accept when we see where we are in the pandemic. And at some point, it requires the leadership scientifically and medically, to at least sit down and listen to where he’s coming from. And so with tremendous pleasure, I will now bring out Geert with me. Hi, Geert, how are you?
Well, thanks for inviting me again, hello, I am well, you know, To be honest, I don’t feel very well. No, no, before you even start that great.
I want you again, I know you’ve introduced yourself on multiple occasions, but it is still wise, in case people here have never heard from you before, to just do a simple introduction about yourself so that they’ll understand where you’re coming from when you speak about these things.
Well, yeah, my medicine specialized in virology, microbiology have also degrees in in these fields, additional division, these fields I worked for quite a long time in, in academia in the field of viral gene variety, environmental virology, molecular biology, immunology, etc.
And then I worked for most of my career in the vaccine industry, or I should say, the vaccine business with some big pharmaceutical companies, vaccine companies in several different countries. I also joined at some point the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and Gavi, the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization, where I was more concentrated on global health issues and also pandemic preparedness.
And, I was always an advocate for improving the way we intervene, or we interact with immune system through vaccines. And I think I’ve always, you know, taken a deep dive in how exactly the vaccines work and how they trigger the immune system, etc.
So I felt I was very well positioned to study at large scale at the population level, when the pandemic came, the interaction between the immune system of the host, the vaccines, the virus, and that at a population level, fairly complex evolutionary dynamics that are developing here. And that we have basically never, never studied in that level of detail before.
Yeah, so I think that this is the this is the point is that the pandemic has been a challenge for the scientific community. And one can understand that if we’ve never faced a pandemic before, the issue is about trying to be able to be right with regards to what is happening. But I primed you for a Question, Geert, and I want to lead off with this question. Just imagine, Geert, you were on the other side of the fence. So you are part of one of the big institutions. You’ve heard some guy out there talking about stuff. You didn’t quite agree with him didn’t listen to him. We are where we are now. What do you think you would do?
Well, I know what I would do, but I’m not sure what the question is what I think that they will do.
I can answer to both questions. I think what I would do is always – you know, we are all very ambitious guys. It’s not just politicians also scientists can be very ambitious and very simple. But here we are really talking about millions, millions of lives.
This is not about ourselves anymore. Not at all.
This is not about having a publication in a peer reviewed journal, this is about solving a global health issue, really something, you know, that we have never been facing before.
So I’m sure that I would, you know, yeah, I would probably apologise. But at least the broach the other party, let’s say, Come on, it’s more than time that we discussed.
But I know very, very well that the other party will not do this.
And they had a chance to do this.
You know, a couple of months ago, I would say, the last moment was about a year ago.
And then they have pushed so far and paid people so much in their pressures.
And already this thing is not very looking very good.
And my prediction, or really, frankly speaking not good at all.
And I think they know about is they also see that things are not evolving in the right direction.
So, what they are just going to do, I think is to become more and more silent, to hide, and to just see how they can save their face.
There is no way there will be any discussion.
And they also know that to know that in many, many countries 60, 70 80% of population has been vaccinated.
That you know, even there is no way back, there is no way back, you cannot de vaccinate people you cannot deprime them.
So that thing has happened.
And and that is what we have been asking for, to stop this madness to not continue vaccinating .
Now it’s done. It’s done.
So, I’m convinced they will not they will know what debate will be no debate anymore, there will be no discussion, they will maybe no longer deny, but they will start to ignore more and more.
You know what we are saying and no longer appear in the media and all these type of things and probably you starts looking for places to hide. Right? That’s what I think, honestly.
Yeah, that is an important point. But there has been so much potential damage, Geert. To the critical aspect of vaccines. And I think I responded to a post from Larry Cole today, where he was saying that there is now a push, an anti vaccine push against the normal childhood vaccinations. And we have seen now that people are becoming more and more disengaged with the medical establishment and with what has been built over a long period of time. Any thoughts about this?
Well, yeah, I think it’s very sad. I’ve always been the first and literally, I’ve given so many presentations, that we’re in the vaccine,
Congress is challenging the vaccine community, and telling them all the time, you know, guys don’t complain all the time about anti vaxxers.
Because, you know, just the mantra that we have eradicated smallpox, and we are saving with the childhood vaccines, like millions of lives every year, and that we have almost eradicated polio.
That mantra doesn’t do it. Right.
We have so many diseases that have to do with immune system, you know this very well, you know, Phillip, you’re you’re very interested in autoimmune diseases, we have no, no interventions based on on vaccine, certainly not on a standalone vaccine approach, that are able to really intervene in a way that is very beneficial to the patients for, for example, to the immune diseases, allergies, so cancers, right, standalone vaccines, we have no prophylactic vaccines against chronic diseases, let alone that we could cure those diseases.
And so on the other hand, what I’m also saying is that with regard to the childhood vaccines, this these are, these are the diseases where for God’s sake, we have generated herd immunity, right?
If we don’t continue to vaccinate the children against these childhood diseases, we are gonna lose this herd immunity.
And I can understand the anti vaxxers that are saying, look, I mean, there are side effects of these vaccines because they are live attenuated, etc.
And I fully agree, and I’m always saying the reason why these live attenuated vaccines are so efficient, is because they dramatically stimulate the innate immune system, right, because they are life attenuated.
So, I have always been proposing, okay, maybe there is a way to intervene in the immune system, that we can stimulate the innate immune response without having to rely on live viruses, right, because they can do damage.
We know this, right.?
But for the time being, it’s the best we have.
And so just dropping out the baby with the bathwater, for me, would not be a good idea.
But I’m the first to think about how we can improve. But we need to keep in mind if a population has generated herd immunity, we need to keep that herd immunity because with all the new cohorts of, you know, babies born, that gets diluted, of course, and we cannot wait till we have an epidemic for these babies to get immunised because this is going to be a lot of damage.
We know what what epidemics do: they come in waves, they, they cause death, they cause mortality, and it takes time before herd immunity is established or reestablished. But in the meantime, you’ll pay a price. Right?
So and this is an important point Geert, because I think that many people would perceive that because you’re challenging COVID-19 vaccines that comes across that you are anti vaccine, which is not at all true. You are clearly different – your whole life was built around vaccines and developing vaccines. And so in the context of, just to make clear for the public, what you were saying is that what you disagree with is vaccinating in a pandemic. Can you just for clarity, just summarize the basics, says that you’re not against vaccines, but it’s the timing and the use and the approach.
Yeah, well, it’s like with every I would say almost drug, right? Drugs can be fantastic. A vaccine can be fantastic.
But if you don’t use it the right way, then it can be a catastrophe.
I will answer to your question, but let me give because we were just talking about the childhood vaccines.
Let me give one example, everybody will realise, yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Why is this right?
For example, we will never, ever vaccinate young children with viral vaccines other than live attenuated vaccines.
There is no single example where we vaccinate children against viral diseases, young children, against viral diseases, other than live attenuated viral vaccines, right?
So these are and there is a good reason for that.
I’m not going to explain this.
I’m just saying you know, these things, you know, vaccines we can use under certain circumstances, but not under all circumstances.
So, my problem here with the pandemic has been that, very easy. If you come in with vaccines, you have to know that in terms of these diseases, we are talking about, coronavirus, you know, you could even have all the childhood diseases, also influenza, RSV, etc, that you are inducing antibodies, the adaptive immune system, what you’re bypassing is the capacity of the innate immune system. That is what we do with live attenuated vaccines.
That is why we are using them even in 2022, where we have all these modern technologies, why on earth do we still need to use replicating viruses that is the reason if you stimulate the innate immune response, it will take out a lot of the viral loads?
What makes it much much easier than for the antibodies to clear the rest of it that is one advantage, so much higher capacity for inducing sterilising immunity
The second one and now I am coming to the point even more importantly, is that by the time the antibodies get generated, if you have innate immunity, most of the viral load will already be taken care of by the innate immune system and be cleared.
So, the antibodies then, cannot exert a lot of immune pressure on the virus, because that is exactly what I have been, you know, so worried about during the pandemic that we do not with this, none of these vaccines is replicating okay.
So, there is no stimulation of the cell mediated, innate immunity.
So, there is no clearance of the virus in this pandemic. due to these vaccines, that is due to innate immune cells that have been stimulated by the vaccine.
So, that means that all of us if you do this prophylactically there is no problem because your body has plenty of time to generate antibodies, you can go for the tools etc.
You have your full fledged antibody response and then you go to the you go to that foreign country where there is, you know, an epidemic or whatever, and you will be fully protected, because you’ll have all your antibodies in place.
If you still have to generate these antibodies, during the clinic where you are already continuously confronted or exposed to the virus, it takes a lot of time for the antibodies to build. And in the meantime, you’re confronted with the virus.
So the antibodies are not completely functional, and there is no one to help you because the innate immune system has not been stimulated by the vaccine.
So it comes down ,Philip, to realising that, a very, very strong word to all these experts, that natural immunity is not the same as vaccine mediated immunity.
Natural immunity, is, in fact, the well orchestrated collaborative effort between the innate immune system and the adaptive immune system.
They complement each other.
Of course, these guys are just analysing the antibodies, the adaptive immune system.
They don’t look at what you know, natural immunity, the natural infection does with innate immunity.
So, if you take that away, you prevent the newer system from taking away a lot of the viral load, and you leave the full charge, you know, of the of this work to the antibodies alone, the adaptive antibodies, and of course, because they have first to build, and because they are immature at the beginning, they cannot deal with his viral load, especially since you are at risk of being continuously exposed.
And then, in other words, you start to exert as a population, sub optimal sub optimal immune pressure on the virus.
Why is optimal dose, you cannot kill it, right.
And the virus can select mutants that can overcome this optimal immune response.
And if those get the competitive advantage, they will start to dominate in the population.
That’s what we call adaptation to the population. And that is how we got to this dominant propagation of more and more infections.
Can I ask a question there Geert? Because there’s something you said that was very interesting. You said that we don’t use anything but live attenuated vaccines in non viral vaccines in young children. How do you explain therefore, that in some countries, they are going to use mRNA vaccines in young children? Is there any justification?
No, of course not. Of course not. I mean, that the child, the childhood vaccination is basically, you know, a complete catastrophe, there is no rationale for doing that.
What you will do is that, of course, you build induce, and whenever people have to understand experience one. Iit is critical, for the young child, in order to kick off its immune system after the model is no longer taking care of it, so to say, that, it needs to kick off its own immune system.
It uses a number of external agents, for example, viruses, that it will bind thanks to something unique in the young child, which is a privilege of the young child, which is the innate antibodies. These are antibodies that are very functional in young children, and that can recognise several different glycosylated structures or viruses. – glycosylated means that you have sugars on the surface – and by binding to these life viruses, for example, they not only neutralise these viruses and not just one type of the virus, for example, all the Coronavirus variants, suddenly oldest SARS COVID-2 variants, and by so they neutralise and by doing that, at the same time, they train the innate immune system to make it able to recognise those viruses for later on when the innate antibodies are no longer there.
And not only that, it’s not only the training of the innate immune system to recognise the virus they have been infected with, but also a number of other viruses that are related.
The third thing that is very, very critical is that also own proteins own antigens of the young child will be glycosylated in the body, and they will be internalised in cells, will be presented to Nk cells, that will make sure that these proteins that have previously on purpose to train the innate immune system be glycosylated that they will not be recognised by the immune system, so, that there is no autoreactivity.
Okay, if you understand this, and then you realise you come with an inactivated or a non replicating, for example, mRN antigen that generates specific antibodies, I told you, the innate antibodies are not very specific, they recognise patterns.
If you know come with something specific is going to bind more stronger, stronger, then the DNA antibodies that have lower affinity. So, the antigen specific antibodies bind and they out -compete so to say the innate antibodies,.
What is the consequence?
First of all, you know, you’re no longer going to neutralise the virus, certainly not with the current vaccines, because we know that the neutralising capacity is very, very lousy.
So that is already one fail.
The second fail is that by preventing the innate antibodies from binding, you are no longer going to be able to present motifs of this virus to the Nk cells in order to to educate the immune system to educate the immune system, as to how to recognise these viruses in future and other viruses that are related for when the antibodies are no longer there.
A third thing that you fail by preventing binding of innate antibodies by out competing them with a specific antibodies, you will induce immune pathology and that that so that is the reason why if people don’t understand, what is the role of the innate immunity, how important it is for a child to kick off its immune system in a way, you know. What does an immune system need to do?
First of all, it needs to recognise foreign things that are foreign to its body, that is what the education is about educating the innate immune system to recognise motifs that are foreign and secondarily, it what it needs to do is, for God’s sake, not recognise and not attack self components. That is exactly timed to the innate antibodies that all these things take place.
If we are going to vaccinate children, we are going to prevent training of their innate immune system against a number of several different glycosylated viruses and also bacteria, right? Unless the children have before with vaccine have been immunised against for example, measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, you know – then of course, there will be protected, but otherwise, against all these glycosylated pathogens, they will have no protection, because there will be no training and this will be irreversible.
Because they’re antigen specific antibodies from these bloody mRNA vaccines, you know, they will prime immune system produces, you know, the bodybuilders who produce antigen specific antibodies and of course, because of the highly infectious Omicron that is circulating all the time, thanks to the mass vaccination, they will be boosted all the time.
So, these antibodies first of all, high titers very high titers, you know, they will be very high on almost a permanent basis, because they are continuously boosted. And they will prevent the young child from educating its innate immune system.
And, you know, if that does not occur within the first years of life, innate antibodies, you know, they disappear, and you have missed that phenomenal window of opportunity to teach your body to not recognize self components, and, you know, to start to recognise things that are foreign to your body.
If we do that, I tell you Philip, I mean, I’ve, I’ve given you know, or send a message, it will be probably sent out worldwide, I hope tomorrow, to all parents.
This is going to be a death sentence for the child. Right?
This is just unbelievable, if you if you do these things., I mean, this is much, much worse than doing this in an adult who has already a trained immune system, who knows already what to recognise and what not to recognise – the child – this is for the young child to beginning it needs to kick this off. And it has only the innate antibodies, it’s a phenomenal thing to do the same thing, thanks for designating antibodies, it can at the same time recognise foreign things.
And you know, because they are glycosylated, right? And the own proteins have been glycosylated on purpose to also make sure they go through this pathway where Nk cells, you know, can make sure that there is no auto immune responses, right.
So this is this is just, this is just unbelievable.
And that is the reason, that is the reason why we don’t vaccinate children with viral vaccines older than viral vaccines that are live attenuated.
Everybody can check this.
Come on, ask the question, for God’s sake. Why is this? Because I mean, we have modern technologies, why on earth are we still using these old fashioned technologies, right from the Middle Ages, almost, to vaccinate our children, there is a good reason for that. It can be empirical, but I gave you the scientific explanation.
Now wonderful, tremendous, GeerT. So where we are now Geert, so this is now two and a half years into the pandemic. At this point, what is your thermometer? Are you feeling less worried about the same? Or more worried? Where are you?
I’m feeling incredibly worried because what I have always forecasted that is what what is happening is that we have generated, I think you can say this in English, a snowball effect
You know, the snowball effect, you know, , the snowball is running and it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger.
And so it’s not like it is something that is just continuing at the same pace. And at the same intensity. It is self catalysing. Right?
And when I say this, I’m of course alluding, first of all to the continuing evolution of the virus and it’s so tricky, it’s so tricky, because and that is the difficult thing that is my frustration that arose.
So very disorderly, very few signs that are low as to tell lay people, look, this looks not good. This is dangerous, for example, because right now people are still pretty well protected against severe disease, right.?And and hospitalisations, etc.
Yes, and of course drawdowns, utilisation, and they increase.
But guess what most of many of these hospitalisations are still not due to COVID-19 – so to say in this, you know, elderly people or people with a weakened immune system, that is one thing, on the second hand, you know, we have also more and more children that are now hospitalised, and they are hospitalised to some extent because of COVID-19.
And that is due to the high infectious pressure.
You know, I’ve explained this one day, but people say, oh, well, they are getting over it, we need to vaccinate and see it’s but what is it.
It’s just escalating.
The virus is evolving towards a form, you know, of the virus that is more virulent,, that is so obvious.
I wrote 45 pages on this – I’m still continuing, but I tell in very simple terms, people will be able to follow this.
What happened first?
First, we via the virus became more infectious – Alpha Beta, Gamma Delta – the virus became more infectious.
But thanks to the neutralising antibodies, we were still protected against disease, okay, everybody agrees?
What happened then, then all of a sudden, the virus became more and more resistant to these neutralising antibodies.
What happens? The vaccinees they became more and more susceptible to infection. What happened then?
Omicron came B A four B A five scientists found that the virus became more virulent, when they tested it in the lab in the sense that it induced more of this fusion between between the epithelial cells.
That is a sign of virulence, you know, that they tested in vitro.
The next thing will be that you will have resistance against the antibodies that for now, just for now, neutralise the virus virulence of the virus.
nd these antibodies that neutralise the virulence of the virus are exactly the same antibodies that enhance the infection of the virus at the upper respiratory tract.
So , those infection enhancing antibodies are those that prevent fusion and you know, formation of sin cicha In the distant organs, so in the lower respiratory tract, so, in other words, with when the when the mutes or when the virus will become resistant, just like it has done with the neutralising antibodies – the infection -neutralising antibodies, when it will now become resistant to the virulence neutralising antibodies – I mean, then that that is hell, and it will happen, because it just also about immune pressure of antibodies, that is sub optimal.
And that is continuously and more and more exerted on the lifecycle of the virus, right.
But people can’t see these papers out here, or what are you talking about?
I mean, we’re just doing fine and look at, you know, hospitals, etc. But see, the children – they get to do they get the disease, we should vaccinate them? A
nd by the way, you know, these people that get to the hospital? Yeah, of course, they get a number of diseases.
But you know, it’s not COVID. Right.
So it’s all agains , you know, as well, against us against the external signs of this evolutionary dynamics, are difficult to understand, even by experts, let alone by politicians, and also for laymen, very, very difficult to understand.
And that is why we are making the wrong decisions that have really very, very detrimental consequences I just told you about, about the children, right?
That there is, so many, so many of these decisions, that are pretty irreversible, as I’m always saying,
If you prime your immune system, you cannot deprime.
And that that makes me really extremely, very concerned.
So I’m way, you know, my predictions were kind of like, terrifying, right?
And I miss it to some extent, in the sense that I thought it would all happen at the same time.
The virus does it in two stages I just explained, you becomes more infectious, then the vaccinees become more susceptible to infection, then it becomes more virulent.
And then ultimately, the fact that the vaccine is going to become more susceptible, so to say, to the vigilance,.
I didn’t know that, but the end station that I imagined what I know right now, and the connection with other pandemics that are about to start already ongoing, it just making my predictions, even worse. A bombshell on one of our most precious organs that we have – population wide, we have done this – and that is the immune system.
Right. So I want you to take us now through this very complex looking slide, Geert, and I’ll try and see if I can keep up with the science here and see if we can get it simplified. So this is….
Well if you don’t if you don’t mind, zoom in a little bit, if you can. . Thanks.
Where do you start with this?
Well, I start simply first with two sentences, where I’m saying, because it’s well, it connects well, with what we just discussed, that the vaccinees is – and please don’t misunderstand me, my heart goes out to the vaccinees.
I’m extremely worried.
And when I talk about vaccinees, it’s not with disdain or it’s not, you know that I think they have been stupid to do this.
But there is no way around. -the immune status of the vaccine is very different from the non vaccinated person.
And I could also talk about, you know, people with the vaccine status and people, you know, that have not the vaccine status. – we just talked about vaccinated and non vaccinated. But please, there is no way I would ever discriminate.
By the way, by the way, I think it’s very important to say that right no?
There is absolutely no reason for any vaccine or for any non vaccinated person to discriminate the other because the the non vaccinated people are getting better and better trained.
And you will see that, you know, they get, you know, less disease, they’re doing better and better, that their innate immune system, especially in the healthy people gets better and better trained.
So they need to avoid vaccinees at the same time, you know vaccinees, they are more susceptible to reinfection.
So, the chances are higher that they become reinfected etc. But they cannot prevent this reinfection they have no very high susceptibility to viruses everywhere.
The vaccinees is will still, after a few days maybe, of shedding they will eliminate the virus.
There’s absolutely no reason, just as an aside – but I think it’s important because people ask those questions.
Should I avoid vaccinate?
Should I avoid the non vaccinated?
No, not at all.
So what I wanted to say is that vaccinees, or no repetitively re-infected with the virus because of their high susceptibility and because Omicron is really circulating everywhere and all the measures and all the preventions.
Everything has been relaxed and lifted, and that’s good.
So, that means that, in fact, the cells that clear the virus, or cytotoxic CDA T cells, so this is a type of T cell that is capable of eliminating the virus infected cells.
So, you have, of course, the innate immune system, that’s what I told you, for example, Nk cells can clear the virus, but if that doesn’t suffice.Cytotoxic T cell these type of T cells will come in you know, Nk cells are also cytotoxic and but this is the second layer of the cytotoxic CDA T cells.
Now, as a matter of fact, these T cells will be activated almost all the time in the vaccinees, because of the you know, repeated re infection, because of their high susceptibility.
So, that means, that these T cells, or you know, are continuously at high level and activated.
So, as a matter of fact, and this has practical consequences, if you look at viruses, other viruses, like influenza, like monkeypox, like RSV, for example, they can also be eliminated by these very same cells. So that means that cells that are infected with those other viruses, can also be eliminated by these cytotoxic T cells that in the vaccinees is will, you know, there will be very, very abundant.
Why is this?
Well, as a matter of fact, the cytotoxic T cells in that clear SARS COVID- 2 to infected cells are directed against an antigenic motif – we call this an epitope that is shared amongst those viruses. So, that means that these cytotoxic T cells, they not only recognise our school, v2 infected host cells, but they also recognise whole cells that are infected with for example, RSV, with, for example, influenza with with pox viruses and monkey pox, for example, pox and other pox viruses.
And so what that means, practically speaking, is that you’re now going to have a lot of these vaccinees that deal extremely well with these infections in the sense that they become asymptomatic, or have, you know, at most mild disease, they develop severe disease as a result of monkey pox as a result of avian flu, for example,.
They will develop a lot of them, a lot of it, certainly those who have a good and strong innate immune system, because as I was saying, they need the immune system, the cell mediated innate immune system is taking out already a root of the virus, if you then have the cytotoxic T cells that are well activated, I mean, you can you can really, dramatically diminish the production of virus, but this leads to asymptomatic infections and we know asymptomatic infections are dangerous in the sense that they promote the spread of the virus to other populations.
And the same goes of course with the SARS COV-2 to right now, because the more infection enhancing antibodies you produce as a result of course of re infection – in fact, the bed of these infection enhancing antibodies will protect you from severe disease,
I told you that these antibodies or those that neutralise the virulence of the virus in the distant organs, so in other words, you are having our population especially the healthy people that are asymptomatic, you know, asymptomatically infected as well with SARS COV-2, two more and more.
Of course, not all of more and more, more and more of these people, when they come in contact with avian flu, for example, or with monkeypox, they will just be asymptomatic.
So they, they are, they’re doing fine, they are going everywhere they spread the virus to the other populations.
Other populations, unfortunately, have not the same immune status, some of them will not be vaccinated, or they will have a frail immune system, the elderly people that were immune suppressed, you will have the children, for example.
And so what I have been doing over the last weeks is to see what is the impact of this spread?
And how does this lead to new pandemics that in fact result from the phenomenon that I have been describing?
And importantly, what is the impact of each of these categories subpopulations, so that we can advise people what to do and what to prepare for.
And the central part of the graph or the chart is the asymptomatic and transmissions where you see the on the top these five arrows I think is the spirit from the asymptomatically infected population, in highly vaccinated countries or in highly vaccinated population, the N N.
What is the impact when it spreads, for example, the arrow that goes race airport, what what what is impact when it spreads to non vaccinated people that have a strong and well trained innate immune system.
What happens to the left on the left, and what happens when this spreads, for example, to the children who are still in the process of training, – they are educating even their innate immune system,
What happens on the right hand side, when it spreads to people that have a weakened innate immune system, they still have their immune system, it also got range, but it is weaker. And these are particularly the elderly, and people who are immune suppressed, or suffering from comorbidities.
And then at the bottom, on the left and the right hand side, you have in fact the same scenario. It’s exactly the same immune status of the innate immune system, but these people or in contrast to the upper row are vaccinated.
And then you can derive from that you can derive, what kind of diseases that will cause And if we look, for example, on the left column at the bottom, because I already been talking about this are the children. They will not be able to neutralise these viruses.
The young children that are vaccinated right now, there is a lot of alarm. Even today, I got a message from Maria Hookman telling me about hospitaliSations that are increasing in for children in Austria.
And the question is, how is that possible?
And should we vaccinate these children?
Well, what is happening I think it’s very important for people to understand is what is happening?
Well, when children – I told you, they are well protected by their innate antibodies- but of course, innate antibodies decline, and when they get infected by the virus, they’re still pretty well protected, but from time to time, they will develop antigen specific antibodies.
Now, these antigen specific antibodies, they are in no way comparable to the vaccinal antibodies.
They are antigen specific, but first of all, the titers are very low one.
Secondarily, they are not neutralising they have weak affinity.
And third, they are short lived, they are not even detectable anymore after eight weeks, but nevertheless, if the innate antibodies have already declined a lot and you know the antigen specific antibodies that the young child has acquired as a consequence of a previous asymptomatic infection, they can still to some extent outcompete the innate antibodies.
When the child gets re exposed and reinfected exactly at that moment, it will be vulnerable and you will not know this because you cannot detect asymptomatic infection.
All of a sudden, that child is sitting on antibodies that are suppressing its innate immunity and it gets reinfected.
Even if you vaccinate during that time, there is a chance that live attenuated vaccines will cause disease and even severe disease.
You cannot know this.
But what I can tell you is that the likelihood normally the likelihood that the child gets re-infected exactly during that short window of time, where, you know, the antigen specific antibodies exist – the likelihood that that happens re exposure within a few weeks after the first exposure, that likelihood only grows if you’re dealing with a highly infectious variant – highly infectious variants that we have been generated through mass vaccination, their dominance, right.
So because of the, high infection rate due to these dominant, highly infectious variants, the likelihood now for a child to get reinfected shortly after it has been asymptomatic, early infected previously grows.
But nevertheless, first of all, I told, this, it’s not in every child, not at all.
Whereas if you vaccinate, it can be in every child that this happens.
So this is not in every child wanting. Secondarily, the antibodies are not going to stay for a long time, just for a few weeks,
Their titers or pretty low. so the competition, the force with which they outcompete innate antibodies got to be lower than with vaccinal antibodies, where the the titers grow fairly high, especially if they get boosted all the time.
And, you can treat these children, you can treat these children, when you treat them, they recover, -they have the natural immunity for the rest of their lives.
But again, this goes against this because – I’m getting angry, really upset about – some of these idiots who don’t take the time and the energy to see how the innate immune system of the young child is different from ours.
They don’t realise this, and they simply say, wow, this child gets infected by COVID. It could even get infected by influenza, or by RSV, because you have this innate antibodies protect, as I was saying, indirectly, against a number of viruses – they say we need to vaccinate, we need to vaccinate young children against COVID.
And soon they will vaccinate them against influenza as well.
That’s for sure.right?.
So I’m sorry, Philip, to get so emotional about this but you see, it’s the emotion and it’s the science, right?
It’s the passion, and it’s the science. And this is so important because if we vaccinate our children, we lose everything, we lose literally everything, you know, these children will not be able to live a healthy life.
They have not learned how to discriminate form from self, you know, they will, they will develop immune pathologies, they are susceptible to all kinds of viruses. This is just called going to be awful, right?
We are going to lose this generation for God’s sake.
So, yeah, this is some pretty pretty heavy, serious stuff. You’re saying got it? And I guess this, this is the thing, now, people will get worried listening to this, are we talking about a small percentage impact? When I when I talk about it, – I’ll give you an example – when I talk about autoimmune complications with regards to say the vaccines, it could be a 0. 1% chance. And so to an individual, it’s low risk, but across a population of you know, 30 million people, 0. 1% does come up to be a relevant number in terms of hospitals. So are we talking about stuff that is very low risk at an individual level, but may be significant at a population level? Or is this still very risky, even within the context of the individual?
Well, Phillip, are you asking me know, after vaccination or without vaccination?
In the unvaccinated child, the likelihood is still low.
It’s still no, but of course, as you will understand, the more more infectious this virus becomes – and we see we see it’s still evolving, you know, BA -4, BA- 5 , you name it – then it becomes more infectious, it simply means that the likelihood that you get re-exposed within a short timeframe after your previous exposure, you know, is gonna increase, right?
So I expect this figure may be to still increase for some time but again, you can read these children as parent you should be, you should be aware that this can happen out of the blue, you know, because you don’t know what it is due to. I tell them it’s due to an asymptomatic infection, which they have not seen and they get reinfected by a book which they have not seen.
Either they only see it when the child gets gets ill. And remember the child at that very moment in time.- its innate immune system is not yet trained, it’s still in the process of educating it right.
So all it has to really protect itself are the innate antibodies.
If you start to compete them, even if it is only to some degree, you’re vulnerable, but I would not worry too much about this, but what I really worry enormously about is vaccinating all these children right, because then you vaccinate them all they have all high titers of antibodies resistant, you know, you have forget about education, after after a few years, the timeframe where you can educate is gone, because you need antibodies are gone, but the antibodies that outcompete is inator antibodies will still be there, of course, right?
They get reactivated through antigenic sin with whatever stuff you come with the circulating Omicron then make a new vaccine it will first of, all trigger and recall – because of antigenic sin, these antibodies that you know or completely infection enhancing and that will bite and that will completely out compete in eight antibodies.
So there I’m I’m extremely, extremely very, I mean there is not the I told you the horse has left the barn.
Even if we stopped tomorrow with mass vaccination, these things and you know the initiation of other pandemics that will come – we cannot stop it anymore.
What we still can stop is the vaccinating our children.
And what we can still stop as well, is vaccinating, for example.
Some people are not vaccinated against COVID and then say, Oh, I hear about this monkey pox, I hear about these avian flu.
Please don’t get vaccinated against any of these stuff. Right?
I will explain why.
It’s not a disaster, but I just told you there is nothing better than experiencing as an unvaccinated, thing, the pandemic because it trains your innate immune system like hell. Now, the patterns that are recognized by the Nk cells, the patterns of the COVID, are exactly the same as the patterns of monkeypox as the patterns of avian flu, etc.
So training your innate immune system against COVID is exactly the same as training your innate immune system against monkeypox against avian flu, against RSV, for example.
So there is absolutely no need to do this.
And I warn people – if you would vaccinate, for example, in Europe, do only have the vaccine that is this live attenuated that is not replicating. So it will not stimulate your innate immunity, but it will only generate antibodies.
So now if you are sitting on these antibodies, right. And, of course, this is the smallpox vaccine.
So it’s cowpox, it’s Vaccinium virus, if you get hit, of course, by the monkeypox, the surface of the monkey box is very different from the surface of the of the cowpox.
So that means that the antibodies that have been generated through the vaccines against cowpox or will not very well recognize monkey box. So that will predispose you to antibody dependent enhancement of infection, right?
So why would you do this?
You have an innate immune system that is perfectly trained to tackle monkeypox, avian flu, RSV, seasonal flu, and why would you, you know, expose yourself to the risk of antibody dependent enhancement of infection.
And if you vaccinate with a life it’s available in the US the live attenuated but replicating smallpox – it’s simply a big chance that this vaccine get neutralised by your innate immunity, because it’s so good, so well trained.
So I tell unvaccinated people – and I know a lot of these people have not been we, you know, my generation has been vaccinated against smallpox younger people are no longer vaccinated.
If you are a healthy person, if you are a healthy person, and you lived, you know, you have to experience the infection experience of the COVID pandemic, there is absolutely no need to get this vaccine.
I’m not saying that you won’t get mild symptoms, – that that is very well possible, but you won’t get severe disease.
Here comes another one, very important.
The flu is now coming.
What are these experts telling people?
“Oh, get your get yourself vaccinated against flu”.
So what that will do is that it will induce antibodies against the flu in the vaccine.
We know very often, it’s not the same as the one in the next flu season.
But what we definitely know 200% is that it will not be the right antibodies to tackle avian flu, and as a threat right now.
So that means if you are sitting on these antibodies without having trained your innate immune response, because these vaccines are non replicating, and you then get hit by avian flu, you know.
These antibodies will bind to avian flu virus will not be able to neutralise, again, high risk of developing antibody dependent enhancement of infection. So I think that’s really important for people to realise.
So in effect, what you’re saying is that we have to know, put on our big boy pants and face the pandemic. Is that effectively, what you’re saying? We no need to just face it, and do the best that we can. Is there any role for continuing to try and protect the vulnerable through vaccination at this stage in the pandemic?
If you look at my table, my table Phillip, the answer is there on the right on the right hand side on the top.
These are the elderly people, you know, with a weaker innate immune system.
I told you even these people times to training their innate immune system is less strong, but it’s not like in children that it has not been trained that it is not there.
So it will be trained as well, it will be weakened.
So these people will be more prone to developing rather moderate disease rather than asymptomatic and mild.
I would advise those people, you know, to leave to leave the nursing home to avoid high infectious pressure.
But as a matter of fact, a how many unvaccinated people will do today still find in those elderly homes, right?
Nobody, nobody, but they could benefit from, you know, lower infectious pressure, because their innate immune system, it just weaker, it does the right thing.
It has been trained against the right to the right stuff, but it is weaker.
So they have a higher likelihood of you know, getting a little bit more disease.
But if you can compensate this weakness of the innate immune system, because what that means is that the innate immune system will not be able to clear as much virus as a healthy innate immune system can.
But if you can compensate this with diminishing infectious pressure, then you’re just fine. Right?
But as a matter of fact, unfortunately, I think there’s very few people left in nursing homes that or that are unvaccinated that Yeah.
Should we fit for for the unvaccinated?
Well, indeed, the message is very, very simple. It’s, you know, keep those that are unvaccinated and vaccinated.
And for God’s sake, don’t touch the children, because that is really murder.
I’ve knew other words, I’m not saying it’s on purpose.
But it as a matter of fact, is going to be extremely having extremely nasty consequences.
For those who are in booted the middle column, you know, you’re trained to, you can still get some mild, just like if you get, you know, the more infectious variants because remember, T one is still a new pandemic.
Each time we have a new variant. It’s a new COVID 19 pandemic.
So we will be confronted still for a while with more infections variants.
So that may get you a little bit ill, you know, mild in worst case, moderate, but in no case severe.
It’s not possible if you are in good health.
So you don’t have to care about anything.
You’re automatically protected against monkeypox, you’re automatically protected against avian flu.
And if there is any immunologist who disagree with me, well, I immediately I immediately challenged him or her, you know, to enter into that discussion. I don’t buy over I’ve studied for 10 years and play cells and what what is they recognise It’s hard to get educated, how to get trained. And, you know, people are saying, “oh, vanden Bosche has published is all in patterns that I had to withdraw, because I could not produce in time, the data, you know, to get them on file, but it’s not that these knowledge is not there.
And on the right hand, these people, they will be more vulnerable being unvaccinated, you know? Yeah.
Take them out the altar of the of the of the of the homes of the elderly homes.
But yeah, there is so so few left. Now, let’s talk about the vaccinees. I mean, the perspective is, of course, unfortunately, less favorable.
But I’ve been torturing what my brain what we could do?
Well, I’ve been telling you that hasn’t changed, that the key word, the key word, there really is antivirals. I mean, we need we need to, you know, have these people access to antivirals.
And what is also very important is that we start really, you know, thinking about a …how can we still stimulate their innate immune response without using live attenuated viruses, because the live attenuated viruses remember, since they’re really inactive, since their immune system is suppressed, could lead if we vaccinate them could lead to severe disease, even if we vaccinated against the flu, for example, there is a problem with antibody dependent enhancement of infection is the likelihood is even be much higher, because of course, they have, you know, a weakened innate immune system.
And so the antibodies that will be produced, they have lower affinity.
So there is more, more likelihood that they bind with a being with a neutralising, and there is a higher load for the innate immune system to clear this virus. But if their innate immune system is weakened, because they are elderly, you know, the innate immune system is not going to be able to do this. So, the message there is absolutely antivirals.
And we need to see how we can strengthen the innate immune system without relying on on Live live attenuated viruses, because that is simply not not going to be possible.
And so where do you see I mean, we’ve spoken about the signs, but people are trying to understand what does this mean, in reality? What are we possibly going to see? Because you can’t be absolutely sure I know, we can never be sure 100%. But what is the likelihood that we’re going to see in the evolution of the pandemic?
Yeah, it’s very good question. It’s very important.
First of all, I’ll make a short note not to forget it.
What we are going to see is that …I already showed you in this diagram, that in fact, the highly vaccinated populations in Western countries are not going to suffer that much, like from monkeypox and avian flu, even the elderly, I showed in my in my diagram, they are still to some extent really protected by the cytotoxic CDA T cells.
The innate immunity is a little bit less, but the likelihood that they are going to develop severe disease is low.
So I’m pretty convinced that these pandemics will have a relatively mild course in the highly vaccinated countries.
But on the contrary, on the contrary, the fuel that we are putting on the fire of the COVID pandemic – it just enormous – and that will be the pandemic that we will have to deal with, and that we will suffer from within, you know, according to my humble opinion within a very short timeframe.
The other pandemics, they are going to be more a problem in in countries that are having low vaccination rates, because low vaccination rates, in fact, Phillip, means that they have noticed cytotoxic T cells that kind of like provide provide a kind of herd immunity to the highly vaccinated populations when it comes to for example, avian flu when it comes to monkey pox – that kind of reservoir for the activated cytotoxic T cells is not the because they are not highly effective.
So they are not susceptible to reinfection all the time. But so there the other pandemics you knowm- monkeypox, for example and avian flew that hit people very strongly when they have not received toxic T cells, because these are the results.
And we know this monkeypox, you know, get cured or gets killed when it gets when the disease finishes. Same for avian flu, It’s thanks to cytotoxic T cells.
So they these countries are going to suffer more.
So it’s a very weird situation.
Normally, we expect these pandemics to come from from the south, right?
And to come to our western countries.
Now, we are generating them in the Western countries and we are exporting them. That is, that is what I expect.
What I also expect, and I’m studying this right now, is that, you know, my background is veterinary medicine, you know – it’s not like it’s not like the animals will remain untouched., right.?
And my fear is that, especially livestock like cattle, poultry, etc, will be hit, either by coronavirus or, or avian flu, I don’t know whether you have heard about these massive deaths of cattle in Kansas, you know, very, very suspicious all of a sudden, and you know, I do not rule out that is combination of, you know, either avian or corona together with suppressed innate immunity due to heat and bad environmental conditions, you know, so, so we are still analysing this.
And then very important for people to follow – how will we see what how will we see that the threat is really coming very, very close.
That is, and that was the other diagram that I sent you, that is when we will see that the hospitalisation rate in the people, you know – this is the middle column – not the young children, not the elderly, not the vulnerable.
But I don’t know whether you have the other diagram, but this age class, when the hospitalisation rate in the vaccinated population – so this this rate is going to Undo to COVID, you to COVID, right, to COVID.
And hospitalisations due to COVID, is going to, you know, rise and to be so the ratio, let’s say between the unvaccinated and the vaccinated, is now some people say it’s still more unvaccinated in this age class that are hospitalised because of COVID.
Well, you will see when this change that I’m warning about a mutation that makes the virus I would say more virulent, is coming, you will see a very rapid and dramatic shift in this ratio.
And what will happen, of course, is that the vaccinated people that need to be hospitalised, in this age class, because of COVID-19, will be dramatically higher than for the same age class in the unvaccinated.
That will be the first sign.
Unfortunately, I don’t know whether we can follow this because who knows till today when people are hospitalised, if it is really because of COVID or if it is with COVID, etc.
So it’s all you see all these symptoms that I’m showing here , if you throw everything, you know, on the same table, there is no way you can you can still make sense of this right? It’s all over the place.
We will see very mild, relatively mild to moderate symptoms because of the other pandemics; we will see evolving symptoms because of the COVID 19 pandemic, but definitely when this change takes place – and that is so unfortunate.
That is what I’ve been warning against.
If you turn this virus into a highly infectious and highly virulent virus that is resistant against the vaccines. I mean, I don’t know, I don’t know – because at that very moment, and you know, I’m not I don’t want to be a drama queen, but I want to be realistic. I don’t know how doctors are going going to manage this really, you know, highly accelerated antibody dependent enhancement, right.
It will be accelerated, of course.
So it will be it will go very, very fast.
And that is why I keep telling people, you know, please, if you’re vaccinated, make sure you get access to antivirals, make sure you get access to antibiotics because you could be suffering from secondary diseases, bacterial infections, etc. and, yeah, I mean, it’s our duty as vaccinologists to discuss technologies that are very easy, very straightforward, very simple and that can be supplied at a very low cost within three months to do all the vaccines in the world that stimulated innate immunity in a way that they are very that are well protected against against COVID because it acts – because it’s the innate immune system, Phillip, you have to understand, it will act, if it is strange – it will take benefit of that before the adaptive gets even stimulated and recalled, the problem is the adaptive ,with the COVID vaccines, I told you, that doesn’t stimulate it.
So if you can code cert with his arm bypass or you, you you put everything on the innate, then you can take away a lot of this miserable stuff, you know, the virus before even it has a chance to reactivate or to activate the adaptive music and to recall the antibodies, right. Need to do this? Yeah,
I’m telling more and more about this, because I’m more and more convinced that, that people will probably get back to me on this not not making a business out of this. Not at all,. This is very, very serious service about global health about millions of lives.
And so what do you what do you personally prepare for in the next, say, six months? How do you go?
My plan, my plan was really to get prepared – healthwise, nothing, I’m just keeping, you know, in good shape – it’s difficult because I’m working a lot and not sleeping enough, but I’m swimming every day.
So, good health is everything.
The rest is nature, you know.
And of course, some of us will get mild disease, some of us will be but I tell you, you will see how this is going to dramatically diminish, but it makes people in in relatively good shape.
Of course, you cannot take the box everywhere but you know, we know all this alliteration. enough sleep enough, you know, mental health, maybe some supplements, exercise very important overweight, etc, etc.
And, and really, that’s it, and for God’s sake, I will not get myself vaccinated, neither with the smallpox vaccine – I have effects even if I were not vaccinated, nor with any kind of stuff that I mean event about avian flu, because they, you know, they could be fabricating and all the vaccine against that, and not even against seasonal flu, because that is not doing any good to to the unvaccinated.
And, and basically, that is all.
So my preparation was more about how to prepare for the chaos that will follow when when the system crashes when your hospitals etc, can no longer cope with all these all these diseases. But
I’ve not come to that yet.
And it makes me very, very nervous, because I think you’re still going to see more of this before autumn during this very summer.
Yes, one question that I think Janice had said before, is that he asked Is it possible to create a nasally oral- administered vaccine against SARS COV-2 at this point. Is there any value now?
No, there is no there is no value people come all the time, of course with these questions.
I also understand this, that, of course, even if the vaccine is nasal, and by the way, for example, innate antibodies, that you are antibodies or cell mediated immunity stimulated by live innovative vaccines also working locally, – that is not going to prevent immune escape, right? And you have also to realise that these antibodies, these mucosal antibodies, they don’t hold for a long time.
So, you know, it’s like three or four months and you need to you need to, you need to boost them, right?
So, yeah, I know this seems illogical because people say, well, it’s local, let’s do new goals, all and local antibodies, but it doesn’t solve the problem of immune escape.
And that is the problem.
Because of this immune escape, we have this more infectious stuff; we have, we have the infection -enhancing antibodies, and we have the whole cascade. The whole cascade is triggered by this immune escape, and nothing else, that this wasn’t was triggering, triggering everything. That is the reason why you can only vaccinate during a pandemic with smallpox vaccine.
That’s how we eradicated smallpox, right?
Why is this?
First of all, this vaccine is used to sterilising immunity and the spread of the virus. You know, it is highly contagious, but it spreads its ring vaccination it spreads in parts in pieces, right?
So that means that because the virus is sterilizing and you don’t have, in general a very high infectious pressure in the population, it’s not going to induce immune escape.
There is no time for it.
So that is really the only example (because people are asking, when did we ever vaccinate ourselves out of a pandemic?
And I tell them,
But that’s why when we did it, right, but that’s the only the only possibility. There is no other example of this. Yeah.
And so as we come to a close, Geert, what would be your final thoughts to share with the audience? What would you say as a final thought?
Yeah, I’m so worried about the vaccinated people.
The good news I have is that there is no reason to discriminate.
I need to recommend them to get, you know, access to the antivirals.
And, I’m certainly – I, you know, as I was saying, I’ve studied this, this possibilities, possibilities to work on the innate immune system.
And, you know, the motifs- I know, we know, the motifs that are recognised by the Nk cells, and that can train these Nk cells to kill virus infected cells, fire NK cells, and it’s an easy technology.
It’s not that I want to recommend this, but if needed, if really needed, I will be ready to help them, I will be ready to help them.
And, yeah, things will, according to my humble opinion, go pretty fast, although we don’t see it. And that is the problem.
We don’t see.
And what we see is so to say still motivating us to continue the vaccination, namely the cases in children, and the fact that those who learn to vaccinate in hospitals, many of them, it’s not because of COVID It’s of course of other diseases, right.
So that is, that is what is very, very, very difficult.
For me what is very, very heavy that so frustrating that it’s almost impossible to share this with laymen with lay people and, and these are the people who need to know, and but please, I mean, if there is one single message, do not vaccinate the children.
Please do not because this is not any I’m telling any, any expert who thinks he or she has a point, you know, he or she should discuss with me in an open public debate, right?
If people don’t see as discussing about is, they should not vaccinate their children. And if you’re hesitating, let them wait for a few weeks and we will see how the hospitals, you know, fill up this time, with vaccinees BECAUSE of COVID.
And then I you know, you can at least tell them , well, what’s not good, what what is good for an adult is not always good for a child. But what is not good for an adult can certainly not be a good thing for the child. Right? Maybe that’s the simple message. That’s all I have. Phillip.
Thank you very much, Geert, as always tremendous pleasure, lots of information to digest. And I’m sure everybody has appreciated this very important conversation. Have a great evening, Geert until we speak again.
Thank you, thank you, Philip, and thanks for doing this and for helping us to share this important news.